The real reason why my attitude toward narcissism changed.

ingroup-outgroup

A few weeks ago, I posted a somewhat negative article about Sam Vaknin that pretty much blamed him for turning NPD into something resembling demonic possession because of his own self-hatred and hatred of his own narcissism.  I also complained about the way he appears to have combined a number of other personality disorders–BPD, ASPD (sociopathy/psychopathy), SPD, and other disorders–into a new, much more malignant, definition of “narcissism.”  (Actually, this last part does have some validity and I’m not the first person to write about it).

In retrospect, I think my Vaknin article  may not have been completely fair to him; after all, he was the first person (that I know of) who brought the problem of narcissistic abuse out into the open and got victims talking about their experiences among themselves.   He also appeared to backpedal in a video he did with Richard Grannon (SpartanLifeCoach) about a year ago, in which they talked about how many people in the narcissistic abuse community, particularly in America, have transformed the psychiatric diagnosis of  Narcissistic Personality Disorder into a good- versus-evil, us-versus-them, morality play.   So to say Vaknin was single-handedly responsible for the demonization of NPD is probably unfair and inaccurate.

That article didn’t generate a lot of interest or get many comments, and it quickly got buried under other posts, which I was secretly grateful for, since I had some grave doubts about what I’d written about him after the fact.

A narc-abuse blogger friend who has recently adopted an attitude similar to mine about narcissism and NPD, found that post today and referenced it along with another post of mine in this article:

Are We Being Too Harsh on Lower Level Narcissists?

I used to be a narc-hater.  I bashed them with the best of them and agreed they were inhuman demons straight from the bowels of hell.   And like me, in the beginning, (and like many victims of narcissistic abuse), this blogger I refer to also hated all narcs.   We both believed there were NO exceptions, and any narcs who showed any remorse, guilt, or shame were probably just lying through their teeth to get more supply.

To some extent, this attitude is perfectly understandable.  After all, the things our abusers did to us were real and damaged us severely.  What they did was soul-crushing.   There are some malignant narcissists and sociopaths who have truly become evil, and who show no remorse or seem to have a conscience or even a soul anymore.    Some of us grew up becoming the scapegoats and punching bags of families composed of such high spectrum narcissists and sociopaths.   So I think when we’re trying to get out of an abusive relationship or cut ties with a narcissistic family, anger, even rage, is healthy and necessary.   Without it, you would stay stuck in fear and codependency.

Unrelenting hatred is soul-poison.

This blogger and I both agree though, that once you have separated yourself from the narcissists in your life, that holding onto that rage and hatred (which now has nowhere to go) begins to turn a person bitter and hinders them from being able to move on from the abuse and begin to heal.  It turns them paranoid and they begin to see narcissism hiding behind every streetlamp and under every bed.  They begin to see narcissism in everyday human behavior.   It wasn’t until I began to try to understand this disorder and look at all its different facets and let go of my hate (which was healthy at first), that I began to take any real steps toward healing, and my life began to change for the better.

It’s a fact that narcissists have the potential to be incredibly dangerous.  I suffered terribly at the hands of a highly malignant N mother and a thoroughly evil N ex.  Some high on the spectrum are definitely evil, and appear to have lost their souls.  And as a narc abuse victim, I empathize with most narc abuse bloggers (except the ones who have turned bitter and self pitying and narcissistic themselves due to their inability to let go of their hatred) and am friends with a number of them, especially here on WordPress.

The mob mentality.

mob_mentality

I admit I probably drive the “no hate” point home a bit too much sometimes, but I think that’s probably partly a reaction against the way I got mobbed by a very toxic and abusive group of narc-abuse bloggers (not on WordPress) because I dared to suggest that some narcissists may be redeemable, as well as my admission that I had a BPD diagnosis (to the haters, all BPDs are devils too).    Their attack on me was so over the top and cruel that I was re-traumatized and considered taking my blog down.  I became depressed and anxious and for awhile, my PTSD and BPD symptoms returned.   Another blogger friend of mine, who had been viciously bullied several years earlier by a member of this same group, got mobbed again by proxy just because she was a friend of mine.  Several vicious new posts were written about her, using her own vulnerabilities against her–which is something malignant narcissists and sociopaths do.   I felt terrible for her having been re-traumatized due to her proximity to me.  I felt somehow responsible.

These people have adopted a mob (or herd) mentality and have not been able to move on from their victimization, so they remain stuck in self pity and hatred.  They claim to “hate all narcs” but use every trick in the malignant narcissist’s playbook should you disagree with them in any way–and then some.   They are utterly incapable of seeing they have become exactly what they despise.   One of these bloggers, who happens to have an extremely popular blog, has recently written a book.   I read the intro to the book and could not believe what I was reading.  In it, this person said that people who were abused later or married a narcissist, do not count as real victims because they brought it on themselves by knowingly making the choice to be with a narcissist.   This blogger thinks you’re only a valid victim if you had  N parents.  I could not believe the complete lack of empathy toward abuse victims from N marriages and relationships, etc.  They brought it on themselves!   There are quite a few other red flags on this blog too.   This blogger is an extremist–and clearly a narcissist–who preaches only hatred and revenge.   Someone like this, while probably of some help to people considering going No Contact, is a dangerous person who encourages other victims to become narcissists themselves.  And sadly, because this blogger is extremely charismatic and is an entertaining writer, they sometimes have.

In summary, the herd mentality is a pervasive social disease that’s distressingly common in politics, in religion, and wherever there is a lot of emotion and controversy.   It’s a form of splitting, or black and white thinking that does nothing except cause even more problems and solves absolutely nothing.

Education and understanding.

Moving on from that, the reason I adopted a more (some would say) tolerant attitude toward narcissists is mostly because of some time  I spent for awhile posting on an NPD forum where both narcissists (both diagnosed and self diagnosed) and “nons” (as they are called there) posted.  Both were learning from each other–and both were listening.  While a few of the more sociopathic NPDs with antisocial traits (malignant narcissists) seemed to like their disorder and think it improved their lives, most of the NPDs on that forum were not that high on the spectrum. They were ego-dystonic and definitely did not like their disorder.  They wanted to change. Their attitude was more like some of the BPDs I know of, who are damaged people and can unwittingly hurt others because of their acting out, but are in no way evil or want to do harm.    To my surprise, at no point was I bullied or attacked on these forums.   There was a lot of mutual respect among the Ns and the “nons,” even though sometimes there’d be disagreements.   It was an educational and positive experience for me, and it taught me not only more about narcissism, but a lot more about myself.   I began to see my own narcissism, and decided I wanted to change those traits because they were holding me back from being able to connect or have meaningful relationships.   I entered therapy and began to let go of my rage and finally move forward into something resembling life instead of mere survival.

Spiritual growth.

I also grew closer to God and have become a Christian.  I feel like God is leading me in a new direction — one of understanding and compassion and recognizing that no one is beyond God’s grace and love.  Even malignant narcissists who seem too far gone to ever change can still be helped through prayer if that’s in God’s will.  And sometimes it is–I always think of the conversion of the Apostle Paul as a biblical example of this.

Narcissists who suffer.

Vector illustration of a man lock up in prison

Some really do.  I’ve had a few NPDs email me privately asking for help.  I can’t do much for them other than direct them to other resources.  I regard these suffering NPDs as victims themselves (which they are, and most had horrific childhoods and narcissism was not a choice), rather than perpetrators (even though they most likely have hurt others in the past).  So I do have empathy for them, as I do for any abuse victim.

There is one  low level narcissist I know of who is in therapy and emails me about her progress.  At the moment she’s in an extremely fragile state, experiencing lots of guilt and shame. She cries after her therapy sessions. She has also written to me about the stigma and wishes there were a more nuanced view of this disorder than currently exists.  She’s definitely not malignant and her motivation to change gives me hope that at least some can get better. It’s not lost on me that this diagnosed NPD is a much nicer person than a few of the hate-mongering, judgmental victims I’ve come across.

I know another low level narcissist from the NPD forums who reminded me of a flagellant from the time of the crusades.    Almost every post of his was basically him beating himself up over things he had done in the past, but he was also intelligent and extremely insightful into his disorder.  he sympathized with the “nons” there.   He explained that he removed himself from society and became a recluse and hermit, so he could never hurt anyone again.   He didn’t think he could change so sending himself into a kind of exile was all he thought he could do.  At some point, he disappeared from the forums without warning.   No one was able to contact him.  Everyone on the forums worried that he might have committed suicide.

Obviously, neither of these people are evil in spite of having NPD–the idea of it is ludicrous to me.  We are all complicated people with many combinations of traits and most of us probably fall somewhere on the N spectrum anyway–especially those of us who blog! 😉

It’s definitely not lost on me how toxic NPDs can be, especially if they’re malignant. They make absolutely horrible parents and do a lot of damage to their children.   I just wish the general attitude on the web was a more nuanced, reasonable one.    I wish there was some acknowledgment out there that some lower level NPDs can and do change, if they want to and if they retain a positive attitude and remain motivated to change.  I do not think, except in very rare circumstances, that malignant narcs can change.  Only an act of God could do that.    I do pray for my mother, because when all is said and done, I do have love for her and it breaks my heart that she will probably die never being free of her disorder.  I don’t hold a lot of hope for her.  I was told once that it’s wrong to pray for “the narcs” but I don’t agree with that at all.  I don’t think anyone is beyond God’s grace.   And of course, I also pray for their victims.

Black and white thinking.

The boundary between narcissism and other disorders caused by narcissistic abuse is a fuzzy one.  There’s no “us versus them,” not really.   C-PTSD and BPD can both shade into narcissism, and I also think NPD itself is a complication of C-PTSD or PTSD in which aggressive defenses were adopted to cope and have become ingrained in the personality.   This is something else I’ve learned, and that’s why it’s so hard to go back to that holier than thou, sanctimonious, “all narcs are evil and destined for hell and I’m just a poor victim who never did anything wrong in my life” mentality.   That being said, I have no empathy at all for malignant, high spectrum narcissists and sociopaths who have no desire to change or have zero self awareness.  I still pray for them, though.

I really can’t stand judgmental, black and white thinking (also known as “splitting”).   A someone with BPD, I engaged it in myself for way too long, and it just made me miserable and crazy and bitter and stuck in self pity.  That’s no way for anyone to live.  You can’t heal with a mentality like that.   I wasn’t able to start moving away from that mentality until I realized that my parents didn’t do what they did to me because they were demons; they did what they did because they were victims themselves at one point and were programmed to act that way.   That doesn’t mean it wasn’t terrible and it doesn’t mean I have to maintain contact with my mother, but she could not help herself.  As for my father (who died on June 6th of this year), I know he did love me, in spite of his awfulness as a parent.  My dad was either a Borderline or a covert narcissist who was not malignant but would get drunk and then rage, and was always very codependent to my mother.

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48 thoughts on “The real reason why my attitude toward narcissism changed.

      1. It hurt bad enough just knowing that those blogspot bloggers were saying malicious things about me. I never did go look at anything they wrote about me, because I knew it would trigger my PTSD too much. There is zero difference between those black and white thinkers and my abusive mother. I mean, their scorched earth tactics are identical.

        I was already thinking that this post would be good on your other site. But you undoubtedly know your audience there a lot better than I do, so go with what your gut tells you.

        Liked by 4 people

      2. You want to know something ridiculous? Ever since I read this great post of yours a few hours ago, I have been stressing over what those hateful bloggers said about me two years ago. Wondering if they told lies about me, slandered me. Ridiculous, right? But, grrrr.

        Liked by 2 people

        1. Ugh, oh Linda, I feel bad now if I triggered you. 😦 I’m sorry. It was a long time ago. It was just the one person who I think has moved on. It was so stupid I don’t even remember what was said. No one reads that blog anyway. Please don’t stress. Anyway I remember someone told that blogger off.

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        2. Thank you, and please don’t feel bad, you didn’t do anything wrong here, not at all! I just get too sensitive sometimes. Writing my memoir has been bringing up all kinds of hurt and anger over the way I was treated in my family, the lies, the scapegoating. Also we are having a wind storm right now and it is making me nervous. Now I feel bad for making you feel bad, I shouldn’t have said anything!

          Hey, how about we let each other off the hook so neither of us has to feel bad. 🙂

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    1. It’s alright–we hadn’t been close in years, and he was 90 and deteriorating quickly from Parkinsons and other things, so I expected it for a long time. I just feel sad that we never got to have some time together at the end, or any kind of reconcilation. I hope he’s at peace now.

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      1. I know what you mean. When my dad died, a lot of my sorrow was about what might have been and now, could never be. I had not seen or communicated with my dad for about 8 1/2 years, when he died of a heart attack at the age of 53. I was 34 when he died.

        Seems weird to think that I have outlived my dad by more than a decade. He died in the late 1980s, before the internet. He was a professional photographer and an electrician, really into the latest electronic gadgets. I wish he could have lived to see this era. Computers, WiFi, digital cameras. It’s a shame.

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  1. Oh yeah, in the course of editing and writing and posting my memoirs and abuse blogs, I began to see patterns of falling for apparent narcissists over and over again, or people with some of the traits. It got rather disturbing how easily led I was. So apparently the way to stop it is to stop being so easily led. 😛

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    1. That’s a very good thing to remember! I think I’ve grown a lot better at scoping them out before they can do any damage–not because I couldn’t see the red flags before, but because I’d deny they were there. No more denial for me!

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  2. It is still hard for me to think that these abusers can change after so long. I do believe that God can do anything…but I have to get out of the way! For so long, I took on the responsibility for trying to teach my abuser spouse to be compassionate and empathetic. I would try so hard to explain things to him. It just got worse, to the point where I was in a dark place myself, feeling responsible for my own abuse and the abuse I saw my children suffer. I have watched you grow through your blog, and I truly admire your authenticity.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Oh, no! You cannot change them! You can’t teach a narcissist empathy. You will kill yourself trying. (I know you have realized this) That’s why No contact is really the only thing that works. If you still care about your narcissist, you can try prayer. Hey, I’m a poet and don’t know it. But I’m glad you were able to get away. Anyway, thank you for your kind remarks. It’s really appreciated.

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  3. I believe that I am a covert narcissist. Reading their profiles describes me inside and out. I have worn a mask for so long and have unknownly fooled everyone…including myself. My family refuses to see the real me. I can now see beyond my mask. I can see who i really am. When I know that I’m supposed to feel sad, hurt, pitty, or any emotion that I don’t feel I go through the motions of someone who does. When honestly i dont give a dam. I am great I’m my mind. My wife is lucky to be with someone as great as me. I may be the best man in the firehouse and these men are dam lucky. I dream about my greatness. I am the greatest thing to walk the planet…in my mind. In reality I’m not and I have little Self esteem. I have recently come to this conclusion and it was not something that happened easily. I still have a hard time accepting it.

    After just over a decade of accusing and phycholigically destroying my wife. All the wile accusing her I being bad and all evil. I have smeared her to coworkers, family, friends, counselors….everyone who would listen. I have abandoned her only to come back and “accept” her back more times than I can remember. Everything a narcissist does I have done to her. I have broken her and caused so much pain. While thinking it was her. I was the victim; however, although she may have said/done some terrible things it was her reacting to me driving her insane. She is a good person though. She is not only beautiful on the outside, but also on the inside. I am the demon…the abuser.

    I don’t want to be! I don’t want to be like this! I want to feel the love that she has for me. I want to hold my children and feel the love that they have for me. I feel like a void though. Just going through motions.

    I hate wearing the nice guy charming mask ready to turn into the Hulk the moment I feel like I’m under attack. Which may just be some good advice from someone. I keep a smile, but on the inside I’m burning with anger. All the while knowing that they are just trying to help, but I take it as an attack inside. I hate it.

    Yes, I view myself as a monster now. I don’t want to be though. I don’t want this. We are not all demons. Some may want to change. I am one of them.

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    1. Hi John,
      I appreciate your honesty. It soudns like you don’t have an official diagnosis and of course I’m not qualified to give you one, but if you really want to change, would you be willing to go into therapy? I would Google therapists in your area who specialize in personality disorders, especially cluster B disorders. Of course they will have to test you first so they can give you a dx. Since you don’t want to be like this anymore, it sounds like you’re still redeemable and probably not malignant. But because a cure can take such a very long time and be very painful too, in the meantime you might want to consider mindfulness training. DBT, which was developed for Borderlines, has had some success on NPDs too. It isn’t a cure, but it’s shorter term and at least you could get your acting out behaviors under control and feel a little better. CBT can be effective too. I wish you luck!

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  4. This is such an important post and there is much food for thought. Well written too and convicting. I’ve known of two women that absolutely wrecked havoc in the lives of people around them while the entire time maintaining they were the victim in life. An agency I worked for had a woman director, a nationally recognized domestic violence specialist. Grown men literally trembled with fear in her presence because of her bullying and humiliating tactics in the work place were so severe.

    We knew to keep our heads low when she was in the building because the shrill interrogation that could ensue if you caught her eye was legendary. People were fired on the spot if the mood struck her. Thus the DV specialist that supposedly overcame her DV became the most frightening bullying bosses any of us ever worked for. She had spies in the organization to report any naysaying thus everyone kept it buttoned up in the pressure cooker

    I saw this again in a neighbor whose gossip was so malicious and wide spread it destroyed reputations and lives. Yet in her own mind was a constant victim and turned around the damage she did to others as her being the victim in the scenaril. She didn’t realize she turned from victim to perpetrator as pure hatred was the gas that fueled her engines

    The point here is that stewing in hatred after being a victim can sometimes turn a person into a perpetrator with a blindness and lack of empathy to the pain and suffering caused. It is a warning to me.

    That bullying on line, I experienced it once so viciously that I had to be hospitalized. And you are right this group think takes over and people become monstrous. It was a self help bulletin board and one person incited a riot of abuse toward me. I am very careful on line these days because of it. i

    Yes, while I think narcs can be very dangerous and destructive and sometimes no contact saves your life, the decision that they are all worthless and nonredeemable is not ours to make. When we take that role we’ve become judge and jury and take a position reserved for God. That is narcissism in its most obnoxious form!

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    1. This is an excellent and thought provoking comment, Katie. I’m also really sorry that happened to you with that bully/narcissist pretending to be a victim. I think they’re the worst kind of narcs, because they’re not wearing a neon sign and you really want to help them, and then you realize it was all a game. They can’t think of anyone beyond themselves. I think this kind of abuse is rampant in work environments, especially in the helping professions.

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  5. It was interesting that a therapist said to me once we all exist on the narcissism spectrum somewhere. That is why in a way I see it as spiritual and emotional work to be attracted to one, as we have lessons to learn from them. Its similar to the Buddhist idea of our best teacher being our so called ‘enemy’. If we haven’t developed healthy narcissism we will attract full blown narcissists to learn that. If we turn it into a simplistic victim/perpetrator dynamic we loose the power of learning and see the part we play in things (even if unconsciously.) We need to see some humans as more wounded and acting out of their wounds. We need to see how they may have been damaged. It doesn’t mean we fully excuse them but we don’t maintain a vested interest in seeing them as ‘evil’ necessary. Some are unconscious (just as we are unconscious at first), some will choose to look at their behaviour and its effects and that includes us too if we have narcissistic issues. Life is complex and it takes a larger intelligence to recognise that.

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  6. I have had some experience myself with just how hostile some of these people can be. I can’t help wondering which blog you were referring to. I thought of Psychopaths and Love by Adelyn Birch because she has written a book. But I don’t think she rejects anyone who voluntarily got into a relationship with a narc or a path. The most upfront no-holds-barred hostility I have encountered is on a blog called Dating a Sociopath because one of it’s regulars announced joyfully that her “narc” had killed himself. I wrote a comment, expressing incredulity that someone would rejoice in the death of even a sociopath since, according to everything these people stand for, they are the good guys and we (sociopaths) are the bad guys. Someone calling herself Bluegal replied, “I do!! Its not like rejoicing the death of a human. Who in the hell cares about the death of an sbuser?? CD much going in? If my ex psychopath died tomorrow I’d VOLUNTEER to DJ at the funeral!” https://datingasociopath.com/2016/02/27/do-sociopaths-ever-go-away-for-good-forever/ Your attitude is so much more evolved. I love the cartoon above illustrating the kind of splitting these blogs exemplify.

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  7. Perhaps an appropriate attitude would be to see ‘preds’ (social predators – potentially all Norms can become such, if you’re autistic) as being what they are – namely, their instincts are those of predators.

    They aren’t always hungry – but watch yourself when in their territory.

    God can give them a change of heart – but watch yourself when in their territory.

    They might learn that you’re not ‘valid prey’ – but watch yourself when in their territory.

    Don’t fret ***too much*** about why they seem preoccupied with predation, or their motives, or much else. Don’t be a too-trusting frog when a scorpion comes along – especially given that (unlike most frogs) you’re especially sensitive to the death-stalker’s sting.

    Watch yourself when in their territory. Let them be preds – don’t hold it agaist them overmuch (don’t waste your spoons that way…)

    Just watch yourself around them. Don’t let ’em blindside you. (You need to be paranoid-level careful around ***all*** of them so the one-in-twenty doesn’t nail you good…)

    Note: the above comment is appropriate for autistic people. Norms seem to have a vastly easier time (in general) so much so that the rules most Norms may need to adopt might look ***totally different*** from the needed paranoia stated above

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  8. This describes pretty well how I handle my mom these days, maybe because I nipped by budding BPD in the bud back in my twenties. My sister, the fully developed BPD, is working on herself in fits and starts. I hope she gets there before Mom is gone from this world.

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  9. Hi LuckyOtter

    Just wanted to know if you have watched / listened to Edwin Rutsch and Sam Vaknins dialogues and “debate” (Some peeps have labelled it a “furious debate” (clickbait?)) .. anyways .. They are really good sessions and the info within the dialogues are amayzing !

    When I first listened to a whole bunch of Sam Vaknins audios, it first freaked me out, but I could tell he is telling the solid truth and that he’s doing this to help.

    Although it was underlyingly scary, I couldn’t place why it helped to hear everything he had to say.

    During an Edwin and Sam dialogue, I realised what it was that helped.

    Sam said that he is trying to be a victims narcissist by proxy, to be the narcissist that will bring closure, because the victims real narcissist will not do that.

    Not only that, but watching Sam in the video with Edwin and seeing and listening to how their dialogue and relation changes is quite amayzing within itself, as it happens in minutes (to my recognition) ..

    I emailed Edwin and Sam in one email to say thanks, and Sam has emailed back with lists of other blogs and urls to get info from and etc . although I’ve watched probably all the youtubes by now, the document I Psychopath .. very tricky what happens in there .. and Egomania (Where I first learnt about Sam Vaknin) .. Lidija, Sams wife also has much info to give, and they had a seminar including Richard, I think a few months back . September ? ..

    anyways, I hope you check out the Edwin and Sam dialogues .

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Hi, Wesley. Yes, I am familiar with Sam Vaknin’s work, and also Richard Grannon’s. I have watched many of their videos, especially Sam’s. I have not heard of these debates though — would you be able to provide a link? Thank you.

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  10. Yes, they are victims too and to be honest I feel very sorry for them. Though I do not want any NPD in my life ever again. It is just too much heartache for a empathetic person like me because even those low on the NPD spectrum have hurt my soul like hell. I wish them all the best but only from a good distance.

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  11. I am not completely at the place in my healing where I have compassion for abusers but I’m getting there. It takes time to heal those wounds and there is so much shame even towards victims. Learning to shake off the shame takes the hard work of opening our wounded hearts. I just wrote about compassion for abusers…check it out if you are so inclined.

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  12. Sorry. The excuse that an abuser was abused so it’s ok to keep abusing is disgusting. That attitude is narc logic that says “I got screwed up from abuse so I’m going to do it to others”. That’s why they DO have demons in them. narcs are pathetic and weak that can’t expel this monster from themselves. There’s plenty of places to seek help. They don’t. They are sadists who ENJOY hurting others. I’ve seen it. I’ve been hurt by one. They calculate and plan hurting others. This is concious and willfull behavior. They can help themselves. They don’t want to. They want others hurt because they were hurt. That’s messed up logic. they abuse children. It’s the worse mental disorder there is. All combined mental disorders don’t even come close to the horrid things npds do. It’s a crime what they do. They are evil and wreak havoc in society of epic prooortiins. They are not humans. They are monsters. We don’t hang on to hate for the things they’ve done. We want them to have punishment and accountability. Abuse is a crime. Physical or mental it is a crime! The npds walk free. It’s sick. I watched one abuse his child. They are all broken defective cowardly creatures that can’t help themselves to seek help for their vile behavior. Is a porn addict excusable? They aren’t bad they just can’t help themselves and look at child pork cuz they are just hurt people? My gawd. Have some sanity and admit evil is evil. Npds are sociopaths. And they do kill and killing someone’s soul and spirit is murder. Because that soul and spirit is what makes them a human.

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    1. What’s really disgusting is twisting someone’s words around. Lucky Otter was clear about not condoning “bad behavior.” She never said victimhood made it OK to victimize others. It’s really the “survivors'” blogs that do this by making “victims” and/or “survivors” seem like saints and “narcs” seem like sinners. I don’t know if you’re a Christian but one of the most fundamental tenants of Christianity is the idea that EVERYONE is a sinner. The Lord’s Prayer even says, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those of others.” God doesn’t condone sin but he forgives it.

      Narcs and sadists are two different things. Of course, one can be both at the same time. But it’s wrong to assume that all narcs are also sadists. A sadist enjoys other people’s suffering. Some sadists are neither narcissistic, nor psychopathic nor have ASPD. They are “ethical” and only inflict pain on consensual partners. Judging from your comments, I think YOU are the one lusting after pain for “narcs.” That isn’t even sadism. It’s pure anger. One of the easiest mind-sets for humanity is to demonize your enemy. Christ says “Love your enemy.”

      I understand how seductive the status of “victimhood” can be. I once embraced that status when I was new to the women’s movement. I know, first hand, how it feels. But it’s really a drug and, like all drugs, it can make you feel good but for a price.

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      1. Some survivors seek revenge. To treat evil with evil. Well. Imo that means evil as turned them evil. And that’s what made a narc to begin with. It’s the proverbial question of what came first the egg or the chicken. That’s my point. I don’t really care why or how or what an NPD went through. It is irrelevant as what transpired is in the past. If the experience baited them to lash out with more evil that is the bottomless pit of no return. Narcs create more narcs. What was done to me I can do to others mentality. That’s bad logic. Society needs to address this because children are greatly harmed by this element. They don’t have resources to escape abuse they live in it. That’s what’s very sad. Any adult who who has endured this type of abuse has resources to overcome it. Instead they choose the easy route. To keep abusing and become what destroyed them. That’s very weak person with no control over themselves. You walk away from these narcs. Close the doors. Children can’t though. They are in this prison of abuse. That’s very sad and heartbreaking. They have no mindset to battle such monsters.

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