On the idea that all narcissists are hellbound demons

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What I’m about to talk about may be controversial but honestly, I don’t care because I think it’s an important issue. I know some might even think me evil myself for even attempting to understand the dynamics I see going on in the narcissistic abuse community, especially online.

Since I became self-aware I’ve been doing a lot of posting on a support forum for self aware (mostly covert) narcissists and borderlines who hate their disorder. To my surprise, I’ve noticed a LOT of guilt among some of the narcissists (some of who, admittedly, may not actually be narcissists at all but think they are–which could be the case for me too). Frankly, at first, this surprised me. I expected a bunch of trolls and bullies and generally nasty people (due to how pervasive the stereotype of all narcs being evil is).

Overall, the guilt and remorse I’m seeing among the narcissists on this particular forum is a good thing, because it’s caused some of them to try to do something about it–make up for the wasted years, make amends to the people they have hurt, and in some cases, even try to change behaviors or heal from NPD. The presence of guilt means some them still have a conscience. Narcissists who have no remorse or shame probably wouldn’t be posting there at all, or if they did, their attitude would be in stark contrast to most of the posts there. (In fact, the ASPDs and malignants seem to like to troll the forum and make snarky jokes about how stupid and pointless they think all the guilt is–and a few even like to “rub in” the fear of hell and hopelessness, just to be sadistic).

But I’ve also noticed a lot of fatalism and hopelessness–some narcissists on the forum seem to think they’re evil to the core (even though they have a guilty conscience) and are hopeless and destined for hell. It’s as if some low-mid spectrum narcissists (and probably some non-narcissists who think they are) have drank the Koolaid some of the extreme victims are dishing out about all Ns being demons or monsters with no human emotions at all. I find this disturbing and I’ll get to why here in a minute.

I believe in No Contact and not associating with narcissists if it can be helped, and I definitely believe there’s a spiritual dimension to this disorder (and that includes all the Cluster B disorders). I also think that narcissistic behaviors are evil and what’s more, unlike other mental illnesses, narcissism can infect victims and eventually even turn them into narcissists themselves. So, yes, it’s a very dark disorder involving a decided spiritual element. They can be very dangerous. That’s a fact. So if someone is a known narcissist, it’s in your best interests to get away from them. The damage they can inflict is very real. It happened to me.

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But as for the narcissists themselves? I think in most cases, they are still human. I don’t agree with some that God has forgotten those who sincerely want to get better and do the hard (and it is hard!) work necessary for healing or change. I think the stigmatization of Cluster B disorders, narcissism in particular, is damaging because those who want to change and are willing to go through the necessary pain to do so, are told they’re hopeless and to forget it. Even therapists don’t want to deal with anyone with an NPD diagnosis or even a BPD diagnosis.

This attitude has even extended to people who try to understand narcissism and the abuse that led to it (even though they don’t condone or approve of it)–abuse victims and others who make an attempt to understand NPD or even BPD are dismissed as being as bad as narcissists themselves and accused of enabling, being narc-lovers, and even siding with the devil. While I do understand the attitude of those who demonize, especially because of the horrific abuse some victims were subject to, I still think it’s a form of splitting and damaging to people with Cluster B disorders who are not high on the spectrum or wanting to heal.

This attitude also fosters a culture of fear and hatred, and that isn’t good for victims either, because how can you heal from abuse when you’re consumed with terror and loathing? It’s as if they’re allowing the narcissists who abused them to still continue to abuse them–from inside their minds. Even if they’re NC with their abusers, they keep dwelling on the victimization and can’t move to a place of healing or ever becoming happy, whole people.

I do think there are truly evil people (malignant narcissists and unrepentant psychopaths and sociopaths) who do seem to lack any semblance of humanity or any self awareness or willingness to change. I’ve seen the “black eyes” some victims talk about. I used to see them on my ex. It’s real and very frightening. But I don’t think all or even most narcissists are that far gone, and the ones who have become self aware and want to change have become that way for a reason. The “point of no return” has not been crossed. So I think there is hope for some.

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There’s one blog I really like. It’s not specifically about narcissism, but the blog owner, who is a Christian pastor, writes about narcissism every Friday. Unlike many of the victim sites, he attempts to understand narcissists from a spiritual perspective and doesn’t spew hate and fear, while at the same time he doesn’t condone or encourage enabling of the things they do.
https://graceformyheart.wordpress.com/

I think this is an important issue because of all the splitting and black and white thinking and stereotyping going on the web (which is in itself very narcissistic or at least borderline). I think it’s possible to be a narcissist who can change. I also think most the narcissists posting on the forum I’m speaking of aren’t anywhere near as bad as they’ve been painted to be. If there’s guilt and remorse present, then it follows there’s a feeling human being in there somewhere. Narcissists who have become self aware–especially those desiring to change–didn’t do so for no reason except to torment themselves with guilt and shame.

A few others have noticed the trend too. Sam Vaknin and Spartanlifecoach (Richard Grannon) recently collaborated on a video that discusses the demonization of narcissism–once considered merely a mental illness–to mythological, even biblical proportions:

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24 thoughts on “On the idea that all narcissists are hellbound demons

  1. I appreciate your post even though, as an “unrepentant psychopath,” I realize that you don’t mean me. Still you are doing all us Cluster Bs a service by trying to restore sanity to that gang of professional victims who are always demonizing us. That meme you showed calling narcs “machines because they’re only out for themselves” is actually funny in it’s absurdity. Machines aren’t “out for themselves.” LOL! They were made to perform a service for people.

    If you’re recommending “no contact,” I would suggest that only for someone who has abused you, not narcs in general. You, in fact, are in contact with narcs by going to that forum.

    Of course, I don’t consider this column controversial. But you already know that.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Yes, one of my missions here is trying to reduce the stigma against Cluster B disorders and restore the idea that it’s a mental illness (with spiritual dimensions perhaps) but not hopeless and that we are still humans who were almost always abuse victims ourselves. The stigma is just terrible IMO.

      As for psychopaths, I probably do stigmatize them more, because I have seen so few like yourself who don’t choose to do evil to others and are still good people in spite of having psychopathy. And you know I have doubts you’re really a psychopath at all.

      Yes, I agree, I’m no contact only with Ns who are abusive. The people I’ve met on that forum are not abusive, they are really trying to understand themselves and are even super-aware of their N behaviors. In fact, some of them go too far in the other direction and think even normal reactions such as righteous anger are narcissistic. They beat themselves up with guilt and shame. I think this is a common error among newly self awares who have trouble distinguishing actual narcissism from normal reactions anyone would have.

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      1. Are you sure it is not just FLEAS? How did you come to be sure? can you provide a contrasting list pls (for myself, i’m not putting you on trial lol)

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  2. Hmm, hellbound demons, uh? I think whenever people speak of such things, we need to put it in a Christian context, which means people were created in His image and therefore cannot be demons. We can have demons within us, we can act like demons, but we are not, we are people. Also, Christ died on the cross for us and the blood of the Lamb is powerful enough to wash away all sin, and to cast out all demons. Condemnation can be a powerful tool the enemy uses against us, which makes sense if you think about it. If we think we are condemned, doomed, then we haven’t got much motivation to try and improve.

    Your point about fatalism is interesting. I notice many narcs tend to have a fatalistic view. I think it may provide them a kind of cover, as if they are justified in being who and what they are because we’re all just doomed anyway. We are not. Child abuse will also create a very fatalistic view and certainly contribute to feelings of condemnation.

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    1. IB, I agree with all of what you just said. It disturbs me greatly the way some extremists in the abuse community demonize anyone with a cluster B label (and even those who try to understand them) and yet do not see how narcissistic their own judgmentalism is. I remember how I got reamed several months back when I posted an article similar to this on LOH, suggesting there was too much bashing of Ns going on. Some of these extreme victims used all the N tactics themselves–even gaslighting me on their sites and using flying monkeys to trash my character. A lot of the things that were said about me were lies. I suspect a few of these victims may have turned into narcissists themselves and don’t know it. Just because you hate narcissists doesn’t mean you aren’t one!

      Some have said that all Ns are “seared”–and God has turned his back on them. They say they are destined for hell. They use the Bible to back their views. But they completely ignore the Bible passages that encourage us to love one another and leave the judging to God. How can they speak for God?

      This doesn’t mean we have to associate with narcs, and it doesn’t mean we can’t go NC as abuse victims. But a culture of fear and hate isn’t healthy for anyone! And I’m sure God doesn’t approve of it either.

      I’ve stayed away from such blogs recently because I find them to be as toxic as narcissism itself. There are better ones, like Grace for my Heart, or The Narcissistic Continuum over at Blogspot, that focus on reason and understanding, while still empathizing with victims and not condoning narcissism.

      No human can judge the state of the soul of another. And, God can also do the unthinkable–there may even be high spectrum malignant narcissists who suddenly have a change of heart. Yes, it’s rare, but it’s not impossible. God can do anything.

      Narcissists and borderlines became this way because they were abused themselves. That isn’t an excuse to act the way they do, but some of the extreme victims have NO empathy for what they went through that forced them to put up such an impenetrable defense mechanism to cope.

      I’m not defending narcissism, but I can’t stand black and white thinking, and the lack of reason that’s so pervasive, with such extreme views backed up only by rage and terror. I understand why some think the way they do, and there’s no denying these extreme victims were more abused than most, but how can they ever heal from abuse when they can’t let go and let God?

      I also agree with you about a fatalistic attitude being another tragic effect of abuse.

      Thank you for your comments. 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

  3. Wow. This post is so true. And what is sad in these NA survivor communities is many of them are Christians yet they seem to disbelieve the simple gospel of Romans 10- believe in Jesus, accept that all your sins are paid for, repent as much as you can and let Him change you. No one is hopeless in God`s eyes. Yet many of these people talk about how God hates Narcissists. I feel that these Christians aren’t operating out of Christian love at all. Jesus wants none to perish and that needs to be our attitude too. Perhaps I am being judgemental. I realise these survivors are hurting. But those of us with PD labels hurt too. We didn’t ask to be born with the tendancies to become this way.

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    1. I don’t think you are being judgmental at all, and I agree 100%. The people you speak of (I have heard them called “pathological victims”) have little to no tolerance even for people who try to understand people with NPD and other Cluster B disorders. But isn’t that in itself very narcissistic and lacking in empathy? I think more than a few are narcissists who are not self aware and are too trapped by their rage and hatred that they will never see their own narcissism. It’s very sad.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Thanks. I have often wondered that too- about some of the victims on there being narcs too. I have seen these types on the internet trashing their fellow survivors even. I read a blog post by a survivor of a Narc parent who when a grandmother posted a comment about her Narc daughter and saying that “things go both ways it isnalways the parents fault” started jeering at her for being a “typical DailyStrength forum whinger” and started to say that obviously she had abused her daughter as a child and that is why N daughter isn’t letting her see her grandkids. Maybe it is true, as N`s often have been abused as kids, but the assumptions this blogger was making jarred on me. You cannot often tell whether strangers on the internet are telling the truth but a decent thing to do is to give them the benefit of the doubt

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  4. Schaeff, your comment, “there is absolutely no karmic consequence incurred in killing them (psychopaths)” reminds me of something Scientologists call “fair game” in their book of “ethics.” They say pretty much the same thing as you do about people having a right to do anything to the category of people condemned. I find it ironic that you people think it’s OK to do to us exactly the same thing that, if a psychopath did to someone else, would make us monsters. Take a look in the mirror.

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    1. I don’t agree that Buddhists really think this way, maybe a particular branch. I agree the comment was over the top and debate here is fine but let’s try not to let it dissolve into ad hominem attacks.

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  5. I was married to a malignant narcissist for 3 years. I’m still married to him. But have nc. I have seen into the spiritual realm many times from my childhood up to now. I was with this man for a total of seven years. Trying to bring him to repentance showing love mercy, praying, fasting. Ive seen the black eyes , crows, cats even little black monkeys. I married him to bring our relationship to God. My faith is that strong. And in the end the adversary nearly destroyed me. I lost family members.. I mean they died. I almost lost my children. I became homeless. I got back up…n he did everything in his power to destroy that. My point is…from a person who can actually see the evil who was still hoodwinked. Some of these folk are too far gone. There is a spiritual entity inside of them. They are merely puppets. And the ones pulling the strings have been around since the dawn of man. Destroying what they hate…us. Evil spirits.. Demons if you will, hate mankind. The NPD personality is the same as that of the fallen ones. Call me crazy or take the knowledge. Blessings.

    Liked by 2 people

      1. I’ll call her crazy, if you won’t. Someone who brags that she “sees into the spiritual realm?” Remember the term, “splitting?” I am skeptical of anyone who paints herself that “good” and her ex as that evil. Sorry, Lucky. I hope my comment didn’t upset you but I just “had to say it.”

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  6. Narcissists are not mental. It was thought it was a mental illness but that all changed a few years back and it is no longer seen as that but deemed as a character disorder. It is a choice to harm and abuse others. Narcs know full well what they are doing, when to hide the abuse and put the mask on to fool others. That is why they are not actually mental at all , but evil and insidiously smart. Remember it is a choice. Its good to get Gods viewpoint on it all. He doesnt mince his words in the bible when the term npd wasnt or didnt exist back then, he refers to them it as insolent pride, selfish ambition, self exaltation. At the end of the day he mentions over and over he will destroy liars and slanders one of the key traits a narc does and has my own mother included convinced after abusing us she will be in paradise. There is nothing Gods hs cant help you with ONLY if you want to change. She continues, to slander, lie, manipulate fool the masses omcluding her own elder husband and takes delight in causing harm to her children even when we have pointed out the scriptures begging her to stop. Wicked people find joy in harming other as mentionss in Psalm 52 v 3-5 but God is not one to be mocked, so if you continue to think you are above and beyond the scriptures and ignore Gods warnings repeated over and over in his word , then you have him to deal and it wont be pretty. X

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    1. Is “Character Disorder” actually anywhere in the DSM or any other reputable psychiatric publication? “It was thought it was a mental illness but that all changed a few years back and it is no longer seen as that but deemed as a character disorder.” Was thought by whom, may I ask? Where is this published? “they are not actually mental at all , but evil and insidiously smart. Remember it is a choice. Its good to get Gods viewpoint on it all…” So this is from the Bible? How scientific!

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